Below is an extract I took from a response to another forums thread, it's just my usual thoughts condensed and reasoned more than last time, so if you get bored by the third paragraph it really doesn't matter if you don't read this. ----------------------------- I make builds to save time, so smaller sizes at the cost of speed isn't my goal. Instead I use VirtualBox to install to a VHD, do all the updates, then sysprep it with a shutdown, I then mount the vhd in my real OS and use imagex to capture from the vhd to an install.wim (after I run a script that cleans out a few temp/update and old users first). Take a look at my AwakenOS, it is 3.2GB and has no post install configuring or update installs, this knocks a few minutes from the first boot and also doesn't force a reboot before the desktop is shown when using a Murphy OS with certain updates semi-integrated. I used to apply a lot of my previous methods into my new builds, but since I simplified things down to speed and stability I have been making much better mods (just this is the only public version I have put up since Nov 2013). People started expecting me to update the releases every month or two and I stopped having the time to do that, so I lost a fair chunk of my userbase, as Murphy was keeping people up to date anyway I figured I would focus on my own tools, such as ssWPI and SetupS and the builder (ssOSModder) but I only had one person helping me to test the builder, none helping with ssWPI and SetupS had been built upon by another person to a level that I was not really able to work on it anymore without his help/blessing. So instead of doing a 4th rewrite of the toolset I opted to retire and only do things for myself (considering that is why I started modding to begin with, just to save myself time installing mine and friends PC's), so now I am only interested in automating full OS installs (no lite) and giving options for hard set tweaks/mods that many people use but some opt out of. Theming an OS is not really modding an OS and shouldn't really be called modding at all, nor is adding applications/drivers/updates or a WPI, the only thing that really is considered a mod to a OS is if you change/add or improve something (or a method) to the installation or installed OS. An OS theme and resource modder would be better suited to make post install themes or even an online repository/tool that previews what theme changes that will be applied and then it allows people to change between any themes, it'll also allow users to re-apply their existing theme after a MS update or even revert back to the default theme. I think most modders skimp out on the features because it's hard to do them (usually requiring research, testing or script/programming to achieve them) it is much simpler to use photoshop etc (or steal someone elses work) to make artwork and then a resource editor to update files than it is to spend 50+ hours getting one feature working for everyone the way you intend it to work (but that's the game), so the joy was gone once people started to not even notice the amount of effort it requires to actually mod something. I only ever tried to unite all modders to work with one toolset as a base to allow every improvement any of them make, to be part of every modded OS that any of us worked on. So everything would plug in to your existing work/choices and not require a heap of testing. I made tools to do this (many were undocumented tho) and offered full time support to people wanting to learn how to use them, at one stage there were over 5 people actively working on features of the building tools but then life got in the way and one by one it was back to just me again (like it has been over the past 10+ years of modding). I don't think most of my toolset will be relevant after Win 10, but I am 33 years old now and with no income from doing all this I can't imagine re learning and spending even more time on something that is outdated after less than 6 months of releasing it, it burns you out and at a cost to your sanity/family life. I had a lot of good times along the way, so I guess that is the point of life, but knowing when to leave something behind is the only way you can progress in your life, or it will always stay the same and that isn't much of an adventure. -------------------------- Some of you will pick out when I reference you and it's only relating to LastOS and not the work on LastXP, I just thought I should explain myself as some my choices may seem strange if all you know of me is my previous releases and not any of my life story
I will admit that i don't use all lastos tools unless i need to mod. A few years ago i bought a mac book pro which i use as my main computer. So i created a mod or modification that adds the Apple drivers required to boot up and use windows on a Mac. There are times that i wish i had similar tools for the mac as i have a number of people that have come to me and ask for help. I now install a lot of software manually which can become a pain after sometime. So now when i have time i will work on a tool for installing software from a directory similar to what you have created with lastos tools. Good luck on your retirement i wish you and your family all the best for the future.
I think as far as adding to an OS as being true modding, when discounting apps and WPI-like tools, etc., you'd be talking about reg tweaks and context menus which people not into 'modding' also use. It's not exactly like creating something onto the OS; it's options already programmed into the OS by Microsoft, really. The way I always saw OS mods was as an expression of the 'taste' of the modder and a snapshot in time at that -- and in that sense I believe visual enhancements are actually an important part of it. If it were only about proto-typing stuff, your stuff would look rougher than it does (and yeah, a nice wallpaper can do much already). A lot of modding, to me, is about having a certain experience that is not the ordinary default experience. When UI elements support that experience, it makes it all the more powerful and impressive. Not having an extra reboot due to pending updates can be achieved by sysprep, which is not a modding tool but used for system deployment in professional settings. I do agree that if you're talking about including a nice and useful PE, then that really adds much extra functionality (like backup/recovery, etc.). If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to be implying that an active modding community is somehow not regarding your releases as they should. Personally, I think there isn't really such a community; whatever does exist is rather scattered in my opinion, and then there is the pride of sticking to their own methods rather than adopting yours, etc. I always liken OS modding to graffiti. It has more than one thing in common with that. They aren't all one happy bunch supporting each other. Sometimes they'll strike through your work or at other times they think "no one is going to see that piece under that overpass (forum) anyway, so what do I care." Other times there'll be a genuine admiration and respect among the more mature modders. Either way they all want to 'bomb' and make an impression and hopefully add to the emerging styles and achieve/maintain entity-status. The other part of the analogy is that it's illegal I think when you get into stuff like releasing an entire OS with many tweaks, install methods, PE, etc., it is a huge job and one tends to get really invested -- and therefore desirous of some sort of return or payout in the form of attention, regard, adopting of methods, etc. Hard as it may be, I think the only way to go about something like that (or most things, really) is to try to approach it in a sort of non-attached way. Especially as it's motivated by an urge, it would be better to do it without being too attached to outcome (in other words, you'll probably do it anyway as you feel you need to, so better do it in a way that doesn't compromise yourself in the case of 'poor turnout'). Do remember, no one is really asking you for it. You want to share it and there will always be people who appreciate that. Several years ago I also felt like certain people weren't giving me enough props (or rather, I felt they were ignoring my efforts in making apps pretty much, not even using or downloading them) and I felt frustrated by that. How can you be involved on the same forum and not even try the apps? How retarded is that, right? Well, it really isn't retarded. It might have been somewhat weird, but in the end that's not up to me to judge or internalize -- it's their life, not mine. It was just my desire because I was so invested in the return. Later, I couldn't even understand what my mindset of that time was like, that I would feel that. At this time, I don't really care. But it's not an indifference, it's more like a maintenance of my own interest and utility; if someone else finds that useful, great. But if you set out with a plan that involves the adopting of your product by others and are invested in that, you're going to have a bumpy ride. That's not to say your tools and methods shouldn't get more attention; SetupS as programmed by Freezer should also get more attention. At the same time, that doesn't detract from the value those things have. Proof? The fact that Beyonce can make $160,000,000 in a year means that people's attention are on inferior, useless, and quite frankly, tacky things. In other words, you're always going to lose when you want to 'change the world'. It doesn't mean you don't do what you do, it just means you do what you do without being a megalomaniac Maybe you should also work on that stuff a little at a time, rather than spending weeks in a continuous frenzy, which only builds up your desire for return to unreasonable amounts. I think it raises the stakes like a drum-roll leading up to some result or outcome. You can disagree with me, but I've seen you go through this so many times that I know I'm not wrong completely, if I'm wrong at all. Things have their natural attraction and color. People who can see it (or sometimes, just are in the right place to even be able to see it) will. Would you like a flower to uproot itself and start beating people up in back alleys and extort attention from them? No, they just are and if you don't see it you have perhaps impoverished yourself. So whatever someone does with it or doesn't do with it is not your responsibility, nor should it be desired to be within your power. Do what you want to do. But if what you want to do is for others to do something, you wouldn't have that right. You can see it as: what you do makes you; or you can see it as: what you do expresses you. Choose the latter, grasshopper
That Trouba is by far the best explanation of the situation and I hadn't seen it like that before, thanks for spending so long writing up all that. I will take it to heart and reflect on it from time to time to do a better piece by piece approach of sharing and no longer tag the whole fricken bridge in bright pink paint demanding passer bys take notice. instead I'll place diamonds out of the reach of others so they can appreciate that they make their day a little more tolerable. As for your work with the apps, it is very valuable to me that you update them (especially the hard ones I always have troubles with, such as .NET, Flash, Runtimes and many of the other ones you may notice I don't usually update due to issues finding the right version/source or method of extractions/testing etc. So thanks again for them and any time you spend sharing any apps is time I don't have to take focusing on apps so I might spare some time to try something new/different. As I get older the days get shorter and my free time gets less - I just hope I find enough time to do what I need as you all know I share what I make because I don't see much value in my own work as solving small problems or automating basic tasks is very easy for me to do, so I don't always consider sharing my reasoning or method, just the results (I think I should change to share the whole process as this has had higher adoption rates and user feedback, it's just a matter of finding how to get hold of other peoples time again as I do not spend enough of my own time installing PC's for anyone anymore (only my own really). Anyway I have to spend 1/2 the day away, I'll be back to continue my other project tonight.
Well, thanks for receiving it as the good sport you are. I know stuff like I wrote can sound pretentious, but hopefully you know me well enough to know I don't take myself that seriously in the final equation
Yep, and Video 2000 developed by Philips and Grundig was technically superior to both of them but came a bit too late into the market to gain market share.
The only things that I saw flop were Lazer Disk Movies and Mini CD's, they were too big and too small, finding the perfect time and balance is the hard part of any product, regardless of the price you give it.
[NOTE: Rather than quote Trouba's post in a big block, or "interrupt" the flow of my post with a bunch of quote blocks, but wanting to recognize his words as his, please note that everything enclosed by bracketed quote marks, such as ["words from Trouba's post"] come from his post.] Trouba's post was wonderfully descriptive and really did hit the nail on the head on so many points. He was also able to express the point that "modding an OS" can mean different things to different people. To expand on that: Some want an "unmodified" OS, but with the convenience of having all the latest updates applied. The releases that murphy provides might meet those needs. ["Not having an extra reboot due to pending updates"] and having WU/MU be clean at first desktop is a convenience that is important to many. I'm not really going to talk about the people that went to extremes on the OS install source, either coming up with the absolute smallest possible source that could fit on a business card sized mini-CD or having a 118-in-1 or whatever source, since I thought that those were mainly either for the convenience of Techs that had to work on many systems all the time, or just so the geek wanna-be could have bragging rights (even though he only installed Ultimate on only a very few machines anyway, probably just his own). But that seemed to be part of the OS mod heyday. Some want to strip everything out of an OS that they don't plan on using, especially back in the XP days, while others want to have every option installed that they can possibly add. (OK, I'm sometimes guily of that. ) Stripping stuff out of the OS did make a noticable difference in the feel of the OS in the time of Win2K and XP, mainly because of the state of the hardware at that time, but it seems to make less and less of a difference now. However, the arguments of having less there that can break, or get corrupted by malware, or just not get in the way if you really are not going to use a feature, or can make the OS faster or faster to install, or make it easier to maintain and update, etc., are still very valid points that I recognize and completely agree with. Which features are not needed might differ slightly depending on where in the world the user is, what language he speaks, what hardware he has, or what other software he wants to use, but that is not the point of this discussion. I totally agree that there are certain features that 98% or more of folks don't use, will never miss, or can be replaced with 3rd party alternatives that are probably better anyway, and if you can restrict the OS to English only and only consider conmmon modern hardware, then the list of things you can remove gets even larger. Removing the ability to remove installed updates (as long as it doesn't hinder installing new ones), sealing the OS with NTLite, and releasing the OS in ESD format to make the source smaller, also all seem perfectly appropriate. Some people thought that what made a modded OS was being able to install a fully functional, but free to them, OS that included apps, as many as possible and usually installed by WPI, especially if the the apps were warez as well so they thought they were getting away with even more. It didn't matter that they really didn't need most of the apps or that there were perfectly acceptable free versions available. Greed, greed, greed. [Not saying I don't appreciate a good app, of course. ] Anyway, I agree with Trouba that it makes more sense to include necessary drivers, useful runtimes, and a few basic apps such as a Notepad replacement and an alternate browser to IE, etc., with an OS release, and then put the other apps on an Apps Disk, since it is more likely that the apps will be updated or changed more often than the general user really needs to reinstall his OS, assuming that the Os can be updated using WU/MU. The OS source will be smaller, will install quicker, will be easier to maintain, and it just seems more logical to me. But in addtion to all the possible modifications listed above, I agree with Trouba that the "look" of the OS is what the Average Joe often thinks of when he thinks about a modded OS. The ["visual enhancements are actually an important part of it"]. Some people may think that the visual appearance of the OS is all that modding is about and that that allows them to customize their OS to be "unique". Apps like RainMeter, and themes by folks such as MrGrimm might be all that those people need. For those that wanted a more immersive and integrated experience, in addition to the popular modders of the day such as AMC, (and of course our beloved RON ), modders such a N0ak came along that modded apps along with the OS to all have a unified appearance. His Dark editions come to mind. Some of the modders did just want to ["make an impression and hopefully add to the emerging styles"], but the better ones, such as RON , also added ["much extra functionality"], and came up with solutions every time MS decided to remove a useful feature that MS felt wasn't needed. But for all those modders, even if they produced multiple different releases, they were still ["an expression of the 'taste' of the modder"], no matter how popular some of them became, so from that point of view you could ['liken OS modding to graffiti"]. Not to disagree at all with Trouba that it probably makes the most sense for the sake of your sanity and the quality of your family life to ["work on that stuff a little at a time"], but it must also be acknowledged that the modded OS that included as many of the above mentioned items as possible in their releases definitely made the biggest splash and were clammered for the most. Unfortunately, that same "cheering public", those d@mn ungrateful f#%king b@$tard$, were also the ones that then jumped up and down and made the most rude demands and gave the developer the hardest time when he didn't release a completely updated version the afternoon of every patch Tuesday. They didn't seem to understand that the more that was included, the more work was involved in keeping it up to date and maintained, and that was even before there were several people that maintained update lists and tools to download the updates. But no matter which of the above a user considers important in a modded OS, Trouba's beautifully worded phrase says it perfectly. It is all about ["having a certain experience that is not the ordinary default experience"], whatever that happens to mean to the individual user. The LastOS releases, and the tools that created them and all the apps that were made available here created by Glenn, Trouba, Freezer, and others, all enabled that. And the ["reg tweaks and context menus"}, and ["install methods, PE, etc."] all seemed to go beyond just implementing ["options already programmed into the OS"]. I guess that is becuase the people here not only put together the apps and OS releases, but created the necessary tools to allow others to do similar things, but specifically fine tuned to the needs of that individual user, if they wanted to, and shared their knowledge and experiences freely. Some of us had different approchaes or preferences, and there were some disagreements along the way, but I, for one, am extremely happy and grateful for being allowed to be a part of it all. Glenn, no matter what tools or methods you use or refine, how much, or little, you do or share here on the site, or where you go from here, Thank You for being you. Please continue to do ["what ... expresses you ..., grasshopper "].
I am truly sorry I never learned how to be a social being, I spent a LOT of time programming when all the other kids were out getting in to trouble. The problem is now I seem "off" to people as I don't use small talk, don't make up lies and mostly try to avoid being the centre of attention (ever). I never wanted to lead other people, it just happened, I think that is why now it's so quiet I felt so alone with regards to modding, I either had to stop trying so hard to seek recognition elsewhere, didn't help when depression had ruled my life up until the end of 2013 (I stopped taking pills to mask it then), so I am still stumbling around trying to find meaning and having contact with only you guys on this forum, I have no other communication in my life (Except my Wife and kids), so don't think I am not wanting to work along side you all, it's just I am a fix-a-upper still and the world is in the process of big changes (since iPhones/iPads were created). I've never used other people's mods (ever), so the most I saw was using them inside a VM whilst I dissected out their ideas, themes and tweaks to apply the best to my own automated builder methods, this worked out well as I would not only "borrow" their work but refine it and re-release for them to grab back to do what they wanted with the changes (good or bad), many fights start over other people using artwork they do especially for their own releases and although I side with the freedom of all creative works for free/non profit use, many newer OS modders are using ads or subscriptions to make it worth their time, so it really depends who you talk to what they feel. I think the biggest problem I am having is not knowing what people want any more, I mean with 3/4's of the people I know moving to mac and tablets, some don't even use or need MS windows in their house. The ones who are stuck using Windows are generally happy with what they already have and the ones who have a desire to change something are taking it upon themselves to figure out without limiting to one modder/one forum etc. So I am stuck not knowing what anyone wants and lacking the confidence to make any big changes, The fact is CosmOS and AwakenOS are still able to be updated to today without losing any tweaks, so no one is needing a OS released all the time, it's easier to just do a MS Update than a re-install, the only ones who don't like using MS updates are businesses and they were never my focus audience (home users only). The only work I can see having value is automating my own work so that I can share my latest tools, scripts, OS's and apz. One question I do have for everyone is do we need online repository support back in a ssWPI app (to allow people to update their USB installers with the newest apps, or are you all happy to continue to manually update your own collections? FYI I will be playing with the Windows 10 consumer preview that is due this month, I don't see any value left in modding Win 7 or 8 as no one is willing to commit to one thing any more as most services/tools are moving to web based apps in a browser and using cloud storage, so Windows isn't a requirement for a LOT of people and unless MS do something ground breaking I can't see the current trend of people slowly switching to alternative solutions and modding as I do it will be obsoleted for good with only artwork mods persisting. The speed of Win 8.1.1 installing to a SSD and the speed of a MS update over 15Mbps+ (especially with murphy's builds for people who install a lot of devices) it's all about the post install and as I said above, I no longer know what people are doing or even what they want. So it would be silly for me to do it alone especially since all the other hard modders have retired and stopped sharing their mods/methods and ideas for me to build on and I lack the time to do anything ground breaking myself. So the alternative is I share what I know in detail so others can draw on any of it to improve their own ideas.
I think with Win10 coming along, there will not be much reason to stick with Win8/8.1 anymore, but Win7 will stay viable as the last true desktop OS that still receives support. Of course, they could just have called it Win8.2, but as in the case of Win7 I'm glad the Vista name didn't stick to that As John mentioned, I tend to like a division of OS and AppzDisc. I think it makes it clearer what's what and in a way more tempting to download for people (rather than downloading one huge image which can have a threshold effect). Personally, I also tend to like the architectures divided, but I'm not sure what is practical when doing torrents.
The thing to remember is no one is going to carry around a heap of USB disks or spend hours making a boot menu to install all the different versions, that is why I used to provide a AIO solution (1 USB with everything you need to maintain the whole family/friends PC's for them). I dropped x86 from my releases now as very few people need to have it and those who do would probably maintain their own AIO with them (that is why I switched to using a x64 PE, meaning you can not have a AIO due to UEFI needing the same arch PE to install from... So I don't agree splitting all the apps out is better for anyone as LastOS and ssWPI makes it so bloody simple to add/remove and update apps to it and I release so few releases now that it's simple as hell to separate the downloaded ISO into a USB drive or whatever yourself later on, no one I know burns a DVD anymore, otherwise I may have considered splitting out the apps, but as I select the apps to install after the OS from within the LivePE (so I can walk away and go back to a fully configured PC) I wouldn't separate them myself and that is all I share (my own builds), I downloaded over 300GB every month since I got my new internet 24 months ago (sometimes more), so to download a release that has all the latest apps included isn't a big deal to even me (I live in the sticks and only have a download speed of 750KB/s, being frugal with the release size by dropping handy additions at the cost of making people need to spend a few hours downloading them from the repo one at a time seemed counter productive. So the fact my builds always have a LivePE and you can pick your post install apps from it make it important to at least include some apps, also as no one can access my collection of Non-Freeware apz I need to include all those or they can not get the newest version of them at all - I know it's not my job to supply them, but none of what I do is part of what I should be doing (that is why I said I might just start sharing my methods and ideas, rather than any actual builds/tools).
Some good points; some not so good points As I said, it might not be practical for you to release it in any other way and your approach does have its advantages. Personally, I always find it daunting to download something that huge, even knowing the person who put it up But then again I'm on a rather slow connection compared to some parts of the world, so that perhaps plays into that. If I would release it, I would still split it. As you say it's 'bloody simple' to add/remove apps, so to add them to the OS image (which would have ssWPI, Settings tool, etc., in its structure, as well as essential apps) would indeed be a minor thing. The idea of 'no one can access my non-freeware apps' would not be affected by the separate AppzDisc release either. So the arguments of it having to be one image and thus one huge download would have nothing to do with updating an image with apps (as you say it's 'simple as hell') nor with taking away access to non-freeware apps (as you'd be providing those in the AppzDisc). I know you will do what you will do. I've always liked modular and lite rather than AIO and bulky. It's just a personal preference not tainted by blood and hell
I think so, yes. Outside of Windows (Android, Apple, etc.) it has been very successful; but when someone asks, "is there an App for that?", I'm pretty sure they are not even considering Windows. Forget reminding them of the (failed and utterly useless) Windows Store -- you'll end up looking like a fool if you tried. And I get sort of queasy just looking at the upcoming OneGet. Is that really the best they have to offer?
I also think restoring the online repository is a good idea. If the mechanism to update could somehow be more automatic, I think more people might use it.
ok, I'll get to dusting off the source code tomorrow and beyond, I'll start a new beta testing thread once it's prepared or if I need some decisions made
one idea is to have an app store where the user can view a description and maybe a screenshot or two so that once selected it could be downloaded to a sswpi directory which could then be transferred to a usb.
that sounds like a awesome idea, i sometimes wonder what certain apps do myself , but in order to find out i have to download them.
????? Guys, isn't that what the online repository support in ssWPI was supposed to do? You had to use ssWPI, but through ssWPI you were supposed to be able to view the description and screenshots of the apps in the online repository BEFORE actually downloading the app. Or is my memory totally faulty in my old age? Or were you looking for something different? I guess that shows how well poorly the online repository was understood.
yes BP, the ssWPI v13 did used to do what they say without having to download the app files first, but I re-wrote ssWPI to have an editor built in, which required I use a spreadsheet table instead of a heap of arrays, so I re-wrote from scratch without the repo as I intended to add it in later if demand for it grew, but it never and I ended up scrapping most of it all for good, with Win 10 fixing a majority of the issues Win 8 had, it might be worth making it again. But I've had some very bad news a couple of days ago, so now I am not sure what I'll be able to do or when. Sorry but life is never fair to any of us.
NP Glenn. I was sure I was correct, and I knew you had removed it, but I was also sure the recent posts by me and Freezer were responding to your question about whether it should be returned. But I know how unfair RL is. Please feel free to share your news, if you want to, and know that there are many of us here who will be more than glad to help you if there is anything we can do, even if it's just to commiserate.
My sister's husband died 2 days ago (so my Brother in law), they hadn't made it to their first wedding anniversary (Feb 1st) but had celebrated their daughters 1st birthday last month (my whole family was there for it). They think that he came into contact with poison (Poppy spray pesticides or something) 2 days before, while transporting it from his vehicle to the sheds on the farm he worked at. It was too sudden and he was only 3 years older than myself. He was my sisters soul mate and I don't know how she will be able to get through it. So I've not been wanting to code yet, but will sure need a distraction when things slow down a bit (also due to it being the middle of summer here and the kids are off school for another 5-6 weeks). I've been tending to the garden more to distract me:
That looks like squash or zucchini? Very sorry to hear about your brother-in-law. It's always so sad when a death is so sudden and senseless. And it never happens to those that really deserve it. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Yes that is what it would do but i was thinking along the lines of an online viewing system so that the user could view, tag and download the apps requested and store in a sswpi directory for later use on a usb drive so that it could be used offline. As most of has seen there are updates to an app but no mechanism in sswpi to notify the user of an update to later version.
